Fitna released

Fitna has apparently been released and Geert Wilders' site is down.

Update

Movie available on LiveLeak in English and Dutch.


Update 2

LiveLeak is now under attack by hackers, and the movie is therefore now always available.

After all the complaints and all the attacks against Wilders, Yusuf Altuntas, head of the Contact Organ Muslims and Government, said on Dutch TV tonight that the film is just within the limits of the acceptable. He expects Dutch Muslims to react calmly, though it might be different abroad. If anybody would want to whip up crowds in the Muslim world, the easiest day would be tomorrow, Friday.

Wilders had released his film the day before a Turkish immigrant group was about to take him to court, to try and prevent the movie's release.

As for all the attempts to confuse people trying to find the movie through Google - it didn't work. 'Fitna' on Wikipedia gets top billing, and they provide the links.

Source: Telegraaf 1, 2 (Dutch)

26 comments:

sjoerd said...

Seen the movie.

I've once been to a wedding of a friend of mine, where the pastor, the father of my friend, told me -and with me all 'unbelievers'- that I will burn, and suffer the most horrific punishments imaginable. I felt slightly insulted, but decided to brush it off.

Wilders, instead, decides to talk the same language back, and counter insanity with insanity. He does humanity a great disservice by arguing that the extremists hold the only true interpretation of the Koran.

Anonymous said...

There is no reason whatsoever to admire someone for filling London with a load of garlic-chewing French toffs crying "Oh la la!" and looking for sympathy all the time just because their fathers had their head cut off.

sjoerd said...

Esther, are you sure there were attempts at hacking, already? Much more likely that the site couldn't handle the surge in demand, isn't it?

sjoerd said...

Ah, wait, I've seen it now, they say "Due to an increase in traffic and targetted hacking attacks"; it's probably both then.

Anonymous said...

I've once been to a wedding of a friend of mine...---

i've once been to saudi arabia and i was like whoa(plain face). just GTFO and kill yourself seriously.

sjoerd said...

wow, anonymous, and they say it's the muslims who are filled with hate

Anonymous said...

wow...---

stopped reading right there. just GTFO seriously. oh and... enjoy your muslims eurofag.

WASPY said...

Here's a link to a wmv copy of the video since liveleak is so choppy:
Fitna (English).wmv

Anonymous said...

The major part of the show was played before the 17 minute film was shown. With willing co actors playing the major roles for free and made fools of them self.


sjoerd said...
I've once been to a wedding …

The major difference here is that the pastor informed that you get a gruesome punishment in the supposed life after, in Islam the almighty revealed via his favorite messenger that his followers should take care of it here and now. As can be seen on a daily basis in the muslim world where the followers is threaten and intimidated with most dreadful punishment here and now if they deviate from what the almighty have prescribed in his forever unchangeable manual.

sjoerd said...

Have you ever actually read the bible? This particular pastor was hot for the Old Testament, and there are numerous passages there where it says its ok to punish sinners with death, mutilation or enslavement. Example? Exodus 35:2: "Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death."
I enjoy working on Sunday; should I be killed for that? The difference really is not as big as you'd think; it all boils down to interpretation.

Anonymous said...

Islam is based largely on the OT. Though Muhammad took the OT even further into violence. Jesus did not advocate what is in the OT. He saved the adulteress from stoning, he gave the thief his cloak when his coat was stolen and he talked of the Good samaritan. Even with interpretation this shows that islam and Christianity are opposed to each other. Even though Muslims claim Jesus as a prophet he is clearly not a prophet of flogging, amputation and death.

sjoerd said...

Yes, Christianity and Islam are opposed to each other - and so is every other damned religion which claims to hold the only truth.
And by the way, you can't disown the Old Testament for Christianity, as in general, for example, it still has huge problems with homosexuality, to name one thing, even though the only prescriptions against it are found in the OT. When I find a Gideon's Bible in a hotel, it usually still has Leviticus in it.

All of this does not preclude the possibility that there are many sensible Muslims, and Christians for that matter, who have no problem living side by side with people from other faiths (and no faiths), and with other lifestyles than themselves, in a secular society.

My point was that Wilders is misguided when he holds that the extremists' interpretation of Islam is the only true interpretation (his reference to the numbers of Muslims in Europe in the context of his 'documentary' suggests that he believes they hold such an interpretation - or do you have a different explanation for including these numbers? I see no other relevance for including them). This is an error along the lines of "you're either with us or against us", or McCain's telling mistake claiming that Iran is funding Al Qaida in Iraq. Denying complexity to a problem never helps solving it, and usually actually worsens it.

Esther said...

Hi sjoerd,

I don't know much about Christian theology, so let me focus on Judaism.

For me, the big difference between Judiasm and Islam is that Jews and don't take their Bible literally.

Jewish scholars have explained thousands of years ago that 'an eye for an eye' is not meant literally. Death sentences were dropped with an explanation that a court who sentences more than one person to death every 70 years is a bad court.

Looking at Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan, it is hard to say that the same is true of Islam. The word of the Koran is followed literally. A Muslim who opens up the Koran, expects to read the word of God and follow it. A Jew who opens their Bible expects to read the word of God as explained by scholars, and follow that.

So, yes, you could say that homosexuality is not permitted in Judaism, but I don't see any Jewish homosexual put to death. For me, that's a big difference.

I doubt that pastor you mention will ever try to do God's job, when he speaks of burning in hell.

I would never want to live in a country where the law is decided according to a literal interpretation of a 3000, 2000 or 1400 year old document. I wouldn't want to live in the US if they would still follow the original constitution. And I don't think it's surprising that many people move away from such countries to countries who believe in liberalism and individual freedoms.

sjoerd said...

Hi Esther, absolutely, and I would have been happy to see a documentary with serious criticism of the regimes in Saudi Arabia, Iran etc.; but Wilders's film is not about those countries, it is about Europe in general, and the Netherlands in particular (the slogan "stop Islamization", and the numbers of Muslims in the Netherlands and Europe make that clear). I happen to know quite a number of Muslims who believe in the Koran as their holy book, but will never condone murder under any circumstances - many who are in fact opposed to capital punishment (and as you know, this barbaric usage is still practiced in the USA), have homosexual friends or are homosexual themselves, etc.; as I also know many Jews who have no problem with their neighbour working on the sabbath (or even doing so themselves).

My point is, and was from the start, that as the Orthodox Jew who believes it's not ok for him to switch a light on or off on Saturday is not the only "real Jew", the Muslim who believes that all "infidels" should be beheaded is not the only "real Muslim". Wilders believes he is, and I think that is a big mistake, which will lead to actions that actually make the problems worse rather than help solve them.

Esther said...

Hi sjoerd,

You speak of 'real' Islam, but when it comes to that Muslims are at a real disadvantage. The countries which follow Sharia law, follow it to the letter.

As for Wilders' film - I did not see it. But I do not expect such a short or populistic film to conduct a serious debate. If most people who saw it said: oh, that's nothing new, that just shows that the debate is not about something 'new' that Wilders discovered. It's about the sad reality. Wahhabi Islam is not the only or real Islam, but it's currently bent on taking over Muslim countries.

Chalons said...

If your muslim friends do not condone Koranic violence and imperialism, it begs the questions 'Why then do they call themselves 'muslim?' and 'Why do they associate themselves and identify with that ideology?'

In cherry picking which parts of a religious text you accept and which you reject, you are elevating yourself above the religion itself, which effectively undermines the entire premise of being a religious 'believer'.

Of course the same questions can be asked of anyone identifying with any group - one could easily replace 'muslim' with 'nazi', 'Labour Party', or 'Christian' in the question, but relativism accomplishes absolutely nothing. Islam is the focus here as it is the only real threat to your physical existence.

(Well, OK, perhaps the Labour Party does too. lol)

sjoerd said...

Hi Esther,
I do not think there is a "real" Islam, but I believe Wilders thinks there is, and that's all I've been trying to say; indeed, like you imply, there are different interpretations out there, and one particularly influential one is also particularly nasty. But giving it the accolade of "the only possible" or "the only real" Islam, as Wilders, and our friend Chalons here, does, is an error, it's simplistic, it's ignorant, and it's counterproductive. You, making the distinction, are obviously much smarter than Wilders, McCain, Chalons, and the Wahhabis themselves for that matter, who claim that only the extremists themselves hold the "true" version of Islam.
You are absolutely right, the Muslims are at the disadvantage here; but we won't help the smart ones one bit by pushing them in one corner with the insane, and I believe this is what Wilders is doing.

I think, if you're interested in the matter, you should have a look at Fitna, and you'll understand what I mean; his generalization of Muslims is really more than reminiscent of certain nazi propaganda films I remember seeing in history lessons. Oh, anonymi, no need to attack me on this, I know you'll be arguing that it's the muslims who are the fascists, etc. etc.

Chalons,
you're right, I also sometimes wonder how a sensible, rational person can believe in God. But I have accepted that even though this is not something that works for me, they may be happier persons for having their faith; and they do not necessarily pose a threat to me because they do. My point was, from the start, that it is not they themselves who "associate themselves and identify with that ideology", but Wilders cum suis, by gratuitous generalization.

Esther said...

Hi sjoerd,

There might be different beliefs in Islam, but that still doesn't take away from the very real danger of the Wahhabi variety. It's taking over extensive parts of the Muslim world, as well as Muslims living in non-Muslim countries, and it's making quite a few inroads to being exclusive.

As for being Nazi - does Wilders really call for the annihilation of all Muslims? Does he compare them to snakes and vermin, claiming they're taking over the world without showing any proof? You can say all propaganda films are the same, but even in demagoguery there are different levels.

Chalons,

A religious Jew can be religious without believing that you need to stone a person who had transgressed the Sabbath. Jewish scholars have made it easy for him by explaining away the need for stoning. There's no reason Islam as a religion can't progress, it's just not really doing it.

Anonymous said...

"...There's no reason Islam as a religion can't progress, it's just not really doing it..."

This is the part sjoerd doesn't want to acknowledge. All other religions have REFORMED!

Where are the moderate muslims? Why are they not heard? Are they scared and intimidated, and if so, what does that tell you?

Where are the "moderate" muslims counter-demostrating aginst the radical islamists?

For instance, whenever Nazi's plan a march somewhere in the United States, there is ALWAYS more counter-demonstrators than there are Nazi's!

Sjoerd, continue on with your head buried in the sand.

sjoerd said...

Esther, I didn't say he did those things, and I apologize if I came across as insensitive about the Holocaust, which I wouldn't do, as there is a large part of my family which I would have liked to have known, had they not been annihilated by it.
I also did not say all propaganda films are the same.

What I did say is that to me, this movie appears very similar to Nazi propaganda films I have seen in the past; much of those did not call for the annihilation of all Jews, but "just" for a stop of the "Judaisation" of Europe (and therefore it is not surprising, although it is absolutely blameworthy, that many in Europe could after the war seriously claim "they didn't know"; in the same way, many Jews went to the camps believing that "it couldn't be as bad as the rumors").

I do believe citing the number of Muslims in Europe in the context that Wilders did, ending with a call to stop the "Islamisation" of Europe, is suggestive, yes, of a call for ethnic cleansing. And even if he did not aim to suggest that, a politician should be wise and responsible enough not even to publish something that could be interpreted that way; in the same way I am, partly because of my family's history, against the recent introduction of identification requirements in the Netherlands. Not because the current government will do something bad with it (although they might), but because a future government can. The nazis rounded up the largest proportion of the Jewish community in the Netherlands, compared to other western European occupied countries, partly because the Netherlands had such an excellent infrastructure of registration in place to facilitate the effort.

This film is not, in my honest opinion, a contribution to a debate, but an attempt to pre-empt one. A man has been arrested this week in the Netherlands for distributing an anti-semitic pamphlet. You know what was on that pamphlet? Speeches of Wilders, but with the words "Jews" and "Judaism" substituted for the words "Muslims" and "Islam". Don't you think that's telling something?

Anonymous said...

"...You know what was on that pamphlet? Speeches of Wilders, but with the words "Jews" and "Judaism" substituted for the words "Muslims" and "Islam". Don't you think that's telling something?..."

Gosh, there you go again with that liberal speak. Constantly looking for an apology for everything.

sjeord, I have no doubt that you have good intentions, but the sad fact is, that even if only 10% of the muslims in netherlands believed in such an psychotic ideology, well, do the math, you're in trouble. You are talking about a serious problem festering under your nose. I am not suggesting that you kill or kick anyone out; just don't let anymore in!

As agreed upon, Islam is NOT reformed, therefore, those true believers, as they have demonstrated time and time again at the cost of thousands of wholly innocent lives, are willing to KILL and DIE for that "true" ideology. There are 1.2 billion muslims in the world, (say only 10% are devout, eventhough we know its a low estimate) well, that's 120 million potential suicide bombers, yay!

Again, Islam is NOT REFORMED, there is no consensus of how to adapt Islam to the Western way of life, and you have seen the bloody results.

Their "prophet" is their view of what a perfect man is; the same man who raped, murdered, and forced the entire Arabian peninsula to bow before him in his lifetime, FACT!

Warlords are strewn about in the pages of history, but this was the first warlord that got billions to follow in his murderous footsteps and had a book with guidelines to follow. The next would be Adolf Hilter, see the connection?

Islam, is nothing but an Islamist supremecist ideology, with all structures of a govt. system wrapped in its pages, it will not stop until it rules the world. Good Luck Europe.

Yes the wheels are slowly turning, but none-the-less, they are turning.

sjoerd said...

", there you go again with that liberal speak ... the sad fact is, that even if only 10% of the muslims in netherlands believed in such an psychotic ideology, well, do the math, you're in trouble."

And you propose that chasing the other 90% into the arms of the 10% is a good solution? Liberal speak a problem?
Because the conservative hawks have done such a great job making the world more secure, let's say, in Iraq? God man, neocons have governed the US for 7 years now and they still complain public discourse is dominated by liberals. Get a reality-check, will you?

You cannot defend liberty by sacrificing liberties. If you think that's liberal tosh, so be it.

Anonymous said...

It only took about 10% of German nazis to control Germany. It takes less than 10% of Sicilian Mafiosi to control prostitution, drugs and the protection racket. It is those in control who exert the malinfluence on the majority and they do it by either telling them they are 'Not good muslims' if they do not do as told or by death threats. Death threats work wonders on moderates.
Just witness the chaos and death caused by a few harmless cartoons and how many govts and authors kowtowed to islam over the Rushdie affair.

masyus said...

The Islam way is not to convert, subvert , conquest or invade.
The Quran teaches, diversity, coexistence, in this world. People of different race, colours, religions are created 'so as we learn to live with each other'
We have to respect 'people of the book; ie Torah, Bible and the Quran'
Theres so much fear, hatred of Islam, BUT ISLAM DO NOT FEAR OR HATE CHRISTIAN and JEWS.
WE DONT CANT EVEN UTTER A WORD OF DISRESPECT TO JESUS OR MOSES, in fact Muslims revere them and believe the coming of Christ.
When Muslims are being invaded, attacked and killed, we have to defend ourselves, are the defenders called terrorists or insurgents or evil.
When a Muslim leader was accused of commiting genosice, the religion of Islam was put in th spotlight and given bad publicity.
But when Bush invaded several sovereign countries and killed nearly a million people, when he says GOD SPOKE TO ME TO INVADE IRAQ', what God is he talking about, the Judeo-Christian God and religion is the most violent and a killing machine not Muslims and Islam.
Thousands converted to Islam, throughour the world, from ordinary layman to proffesional, Europeans, latinos and even Fillipinos. There are no forced conversion, THE TRUTH WILL PREVAIL.

Anonymous said...

"...But when Bush invaded several sovereign countries and killed nearly a million people..."

Ugh, whether you agree with the invasion or not, a VAST majority of those killed in Iraq are done by MUSLIMS killing other MUSLIMS!!!

Shia vs. Sunni, get it?!?

"...BUT ISLAM DO NOT FEAR OR HATE CHRISTIAN and JEWS..."

What about those who don't believe in God????

Also, if Islam is so peacefull, explain these facts....

....This is particularly true along the boundaries of the crescent-shaped Islamic bloc of nations from the bulge of Africa to central Asia. Violence occurs between Muslims, on the one hand, and Orthodox Serbs in the Balkans, Jews in Israel, Hindus in India, Buddhists in Burma and Catholics in the Philippines. ISLAM HAS BLOODY BORDERS. This is perhaps the best way to think of the conflict. Within Islamic societies, there is peace. But anywhere Moslem communities come into contact with other cultures there is violence....

Can you explain this away? Why doesn't Islam get along with anyone?

Why was America ATTACKED on 9-11 if Islam is all about a "defensive struggle"???

We weren't in Afghanistan, we weren't in Iraq, why the motivation from a Billionare Saudi named Osama to start a guerilla war in the name of Islam and Jihad?!?!?

Anonymous said...

"...You cannot defend liberty by sacrificing liberties. If you think that's liberal tosh, so be it..."

says the guy who wrote...


"...He (wilders) does humanity a great disservice..."

A SUICIDE Bomber does humanity a great disservice, not a 15 minute internet video! You would have rather he NOT exercised his freedom of speech, HYPOCRITE!...

So, I guess the WTC bomb of 1993, the bombing of our African Embassies in 1998, the bombing of the USS cole in 2000, all of these took place while the "neo-cons" were in charge, right? WRONG. 9-11 was years in the making before any "neo-con" was in control.

In fact, it was America's percieved weakness after the withdrawl of troops from Somalia after 16 died that gave Osama the stones to declare war on America....IN 1997 on ABC, where he called the U.S. a Paper Tiger!!!! But yes, the "neo-cons" are responsible for islamic rage...

Look, your apologist attitude denies you the proper ability to think this WHOLE situation through. Sjeord would like to reason with those who have a warlord mentalitiy, genius, good luck with that!