A conversation about Islam and my blog

For those who don't follow the comments section on my blog, here's a rundown of a conversation/discussion with a Muslim from Canada this last week. The reason? I dared post a picture of the much talked about cartoons of Mohammed.

NoLabels had decided to prove to me that Islam is a religion of true love and peace (and so every bit of non-Islamic thought should be punished). Luckily for me, I don't live in such a country of love and peace. I doubt I'll be allowed to walk freely after such a discussion.

NoLables comments are in green
Esther comments are in blue

NoLabels said:
You ask that people remember what happened to Jewish people and all the racism that occured to them. Yet you post racist websites on your blog. If you really didn't agree with that newspaper, you wouldn't even give the time to post it on your blog. Don't ask others to be considerate of Jewish people when you yourself is a bigot and a racist. Treat people the way you want to be treated

Esther said:
Hi,

What racist websites? I went to an Islamic site that mentioned this site. I think people should have an idea what is being discussed.

And of course I agree with that newspaper. These cartoons are not racist, though you're welcome to explain how. Since I do not read Norwegian I can't know what the article itself says. I linked it in part hoping somebody would be able to tell me.


NoLabels said:
How about a newspaper printed a cartoon desecrating Jewish symbols and religious people. And then they call it freedom of speech. How would you like it. I really don't like your hyprocacy. You talk about how Jewish people are being treated really badly and how they should be excepted, yet you do the same with our religions.

Esther said:
Hypocrisy would be if I would say one thing and do another. That is not the case at all.
Take this story:http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/3020.htm

An anti-semitic cartoon against Israel's prime minister featured in a British newspaper and thereafter won a prize.

The Israeli Embassy / Foreign ministry:
1. wrote a letter to the newspaper
2. complained to the British Press Complaints Division
3. considered suing the newspaper

The Israeli Embassy in London did not assume that this is a matter for the British prime minister, not did it turn to the UN. It turned to the people responsible for making sure free speech is not abused in the UK. They were turned down and told that free speech allowed such cartoons.

I fully expect the Muslims of Denmark or Norway to do the same. If a Muslim feels he has been directly hurt by these cartoons, he can sue the paper, he can turn to whatever organization is in charge of papers in Denmark, he can check anti-racism/anti-hate laws and see if they apply. Turning to the prime minister is showing a complete misunderstanding of the processes of free speech in a democracy.

Btw, notice that I had no trouble giving you a link to a cartoon that I find detestable. Notice that this picture appears on a pro-Israel site. How else would people know what everybody's talking about?

So far I have only seen articles ABOUT these cartoons on Mohammed. How can I make a rational decision whether they're racist/insulting if I haven't seen them? Have you seen them that you could make such a decision?

Now that I've seen them, I can say that I don't find them racist or insulting at all (of whatever I can read, of course, I don't understand Norwegian). I would be interested to know which pictures you find insulting and why.

Another issue, Theo van Gogh. He was not a saint. He said some very strong things against Muslims. He also said some very strong things against Jews. He think he managed to offend quite a few people. But I expect the Muslim community to ignore / deal with it in a lawful way, just as I expect the Jewish community to do so.

You can see some of his quotes here (and they are strong):http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=113

Should a Jew actually have killed Van Gogh - what do you think would have happened? Wouldn't ALL Dutch / world Jewish communities come out to denounce such a murder? Think about the last such murder by a Jew and about the last such murder by a Muslim. Think about the reactions of both communities and let me know why you feel I am the one being hypocritical here.


NoLabels said:
You gave me a link to a cartoon of Sharon. Yes Sharon is a leader of a Jewish country but he isn’t a Jewish religious figure. If those disgusting cartoons depicted cartoons of Muslim Presidents or Prime Ministers it wouldn’t be a huge problem. Imagine if a distasteful cartoon was done of Moses or some other religious figure Jews follow. You would just as angry. The reason why a Muslim website as those cartoons: is to show people the evidence of hate crimes being done to Muslims. I think you’re a hypocrite because you say you stand for equality and peace yet you talk down about Islam. I would like to know, what your motif writing about Muslims in Europe is. You seem to want to show how “terrible” Islam is. Just don’t get upset when someone makes rude and racist remarks about Jewish people. It is so easy for you to call people who hate Jewish people racist but when you hate on Islam it is not racism or Islam phobia.

Theo Van Gogh was a despicable man who made money from the expense of other religions. Ignoring it seems is all you seem to do but I’m not going to sit back and watch my religion being twisted and turned. If you are desecrating on my religion you are hurting me and I will certainly defend myself. The man who killed Van Gogh was one man and one man alone. Not an entire group of people but one man. See there is thing when people tend to paint and punish an entire religion or nation for the actions of a few.

Esther said:
I disagree with you. An insulting cartoon of Moses, or any Jewish symbol would not be direct ground for anti-semitic attacks. I would therefore not mind it as much as a cartoon showing the prime minister which for all the world represents Jews as a child eater. How many Jews do you think suffered directly from anti-semitic attacks after such a cartoon was featured so prominently?

I brought to you what hurt me and you're telling me that it's not good enough?

And still - I think such cases should be dealt with according to the laws of the land. Not by whining about racism, but by actually doing something about it.

A recent case in Belgium: the holy virigin was shown with a naked breast. A great furor by Christian groups ensued. I did not really follow the case, but I have yet to see the UN investigating this human rights violation. Nor did anybody turn to the Belgian gov't and expect them to deal with it. If you're interested in this case, I'll try to find more information.

Specifically for your comments:
You say:
I think you’re a hypocrite because you say you stand for equality and peace yet you talk down about Islam.

and then you say:
If you are desecrating on my religion you are hurting me and I will certainly defend myself.

You don't see any problem with these two statements? Peace and defending yourself due to what you see as insults do not go together. And again, as a Muslim, can you explain what insulted you about these cartoons? I might be clueless, but I just don't understand it.

You ask why I'm writing about Islam? Because, being Jewish, I am intensly interested in how Muslim immigrants fit into European society. Both from the historic perspective, since Jews had had to go through this for the past 2 millenia, and from the perspective of the future. If Muslims cause hatred against strangers, Jews are going to suffer. I'm also interested in how Europeans deal with the strange and different. How they deal with valid demands of a person to practice his religion and how they deal with invalid demands and terrrorism. All these processes interest me.
Most of what I bring is simply news. If you think that shows Islam in a bad light, then maybe you should start wondering why it is so easy for me to find such news.
As for me: When a year ago an Israeli living in the Netherlands killed his girlfriend's kids, I was ashamed. I did not try to find any excuse, because there really isn't none, except that the man was nuts. But his nutiness made me feel bad. I do not want other people to get such an impression of Jews or Israel. It made the news in Israel and people in comments reacted the same. They do not want such an example for their nation. I expect Muslims to act the same way. So far, I don't see that. When Muslims do start feeling ashamed when people do bad things in the name of their religion, which is supposed to be the true faith of love and peace, instead of striking out at anybody who points out such issues, then I will be the first one to put it on my blog.

NoLabels said:
“I disagree with you. An insulting cartoon of Moses, or any Jewish symbol would not be direct ground for anti-semitic attacks.”

Well you’re just going to disagree with anything I say. I did not get that from that cartoon, the only message I got was that Sharon hates the other side so much that he would even kill the innocent children. It gives off a bad light on Sharon not masses amount of people. I can’t believe you think insulting cartoon of Moses is not as bad. An insulting cartoon of Moses is basically flat out an insult to all Jews and their faith.

“I think such cases should be dealt with according to the laws of the land.”

I could honestly say you don’t think matters should always be solves according to the laws of the land. If those laws are unjust why should anyone abide by them? If people did always do that, the world would still be the same cruel world for many types of races such has black people. Black people rose up against the racist acts against them. Sometimes extreme measures need to take place for extreme times.

“Peace and defending yourself due to what you see as insults do not go together.”
They go together just like hot-dogs go with ketchup. Why should people become some kinds of robots who are programmed to do whatever is told of them? If they are being unjustly treated, they should defend themselves to reach that state of peace. Sometimes you have to go through some rough roads till you finally reach contentment.

“And again, as a Muslim, can you explain what insulted you about these cartoons? I might be clueless, but I just don't understand it.”

You seem to know how to fetch some horrible things about Islam but you are incompetent when it comes to know what the religion is really about. I’m not going to give you the easy way out, how about you take some time off and actually do some research into the religion. May I suggest islam101.com?

“If Muslims cause hatred against strangers, Jews are going to suffer.”

Now how on Earth will Muslims “causing hatred against strangers” make Jewish people suffer. Muslims don’t cause hate; we stand for peace and equality. Evidentially, it seems Jewish people are doing all the hating…Exhibit A: your blog.

“How they deal with valid demands of a person to practice his religion and how they deal with invalid demands and terrrorism.”

Yes go research it, you need it. May I suggest once again islam101.com?

“Most of what I bring is simply news. If you think that shows Islam in a bad light, then maybe you should start wondering why it is so easy for me to find such news.”

The “News” you find is done by people like you, who have absolutely nothing better to do but to insult, degrade, and publish falsehood about Islam. I could easily find news on Jewish people as well and cartoons. Hey even through in some racist quotes as well. But I won’t do that because I know that I’m better then that and so is my religion.

“When a year ago an Israeli living in the Netherlands killed his girlfriend's kids, I was ashamed.”

Of course you should be ashamed, so would anyone around the world no mater what religion and race. He had no right killing those innocent kids. If a Muslim man did that, it would be utterly embarrassing and shameful for HIM and HIM alone. You shouldn’t judge people on the actions of one even if they do it in the name of their religion. I come back to this whole black people thing. Think how the black people felt when people branded them all the same when one of their own did something horrible, now is that right? No it is not. One should take accountability for ones actions not an entire group of people. If anything we as a human race should be embarrassed that one of our own would do something a thing.

“which is supposed to be the true faith of love and peace”

Indeed it is.


Esther said:
Hey nolabels,

I'm actually trying to have a discussion. I appreciate all the links, but I really do study Islam. I have read much about Islam, including some rather serious books. Books which discuss Islamic philoshopy and thought. Of course I'm no expert. That's why I constantly read more. All these books have not explained to me why a picture of Mohammed in the desert is so insulting.
Laws of the land - if I'm not mistaken, you come from Canada? One of the world's liberal democracies with freedom guaranteed for all? Of course there are times when desperate measures need to be taken. But these times are not when a CARTOON is published in a newspaper. If you already want to start a revolution for human rights, how about you start with Iran and Saudia? North Vietnam maybe? The last place I would shout about human rights abuses are the liberal democracies of Canada, the US and Europe.

Now, I don't mind having a serious discussion with you. If you want to just shout at me everytime that I hate Islam and that I'm hypocritcal without referring back to what I'm actually saying, then you're welcome too, of course - but don't expect that to prove your point for anybody who reads it.

Today Muslims are responsible for almost all terror attacks around the world. This includes many terror attacks against Muslims themselves. By saying "all humans should be ashamed" you're actually following in the footsteps the British Muslim council. You're saying - I disown all responsibility for my own crimes, since "everybody" should feel responsible for them. It doesn't go that way. When one religion and one religion alone is the focal point of so much terror and bloodshed, maybe, just maybe, somebody should stop and ask themselves why?

Just saying "we're a religion of peace" does not make you one. If you want to have a serious discussion, please try to prove your point. (and getting all violent is not really helpful in doing so)
You say that all news showing Muslims in a bad light are just written by Muslim haters. I am not perfect. I will be the first one to admit it. Please note one of the my posts Fact and Fiction. So you can shout at me that I'm just copying drivel about Muslims that didn't happen, but as much as I can, I do verify my facts. I will never write up something I know not to be true, and if I have any doubts, I will spend time to verify it. How much trouble do you go to before you write up a comment?

"I could easily find news on Jewish people as well and cartoons"

Yes - you'll find many anti-Jewish and anti-Israeli cartoons. You can start off right here. But if you want the real definition of hypocrisy, it's comparing a cartoon of Mohammed walking in the desert (drawn since people feared for their lives to illustrate a book about Mohammed) to a picture of Jews as rats and snakes. I hope you see the difference. Should the cartoons in question have been a picture of Muslims as rats intending to take over the world, do you really think Danish authorities wouldn't have opened up an investigation against the newspaper for going against the Danish anti-racism laws?

You expect me to rant and rave about pictures desecrating Judaism? I'm sure you could find some, but I don't understand your point. The point is not that there are Jew haters around the world, or Muslim haters, or black haters or other kinds of racists and bigots. The point is that when a cartoon is drawn putting down Muslims, instead of suing the newspaper, the Muslim organizations of that country bring it up to the level of death threats and a UN Human Rights investigation. So, please do find me a similar story about Jews. I'd be curious to see it.


NoLabels said:
“I'm actually trying to have a discussion. I appreciate all the links, but I really do study Islam. I have read much about Islam, including some rather serious books. Books which discuss Islamic philoshopy and thought. Of course I'm no expert. That's why I constantly read more. All these books have not explained to me why a picture of Mohammed in the desert is so insulting.”
Your research was inadequate, continue to do more research. If you really want to find out more about Islam (which you don’t), just email me and I will be more than happy to link you up and give you suggestions on books.

“Of course there are times when desperate measures need to be taken. But these times are not when a CARTOON is published in a newspaper.”

I wasn’t referring to the cartoon; I was referring to Theo Van Gogh. I will assume you just missed that part.

“If you already want to start a revolution for human rights, how about you start with Iran and Saudia? North Vietnam maybe?

Yes places around the world lack human rights and most certainly need our help. Why don’t you help me out and we can work together to eradicate the mistreatment of human rights.

“The last place I would shout about human rights abuses are the liberal democracies of Canada, the US and Europe.”

Well that just shows how naïve you are. Liberal democracies aren’t perfect. If that was the case, wouldn’t you think all religions would have a national day off from work or school on their special days not just for Christians? Last time I checked the US is a Conservative democracy.

“Now, I don't mind having a serious discussion with you. If you want to just shout at me everytime that I hate Islam and that I'm hypocritical”

Hey I call it as I see it.

“but don't expect that to prove your point for anybody who reads it.”

The same goes to you.

“Today Muslims are responsible for almost all terror attacks around the world. This includes many terror attacks against Muslims themselves.”

There we go with the hating again and the falsehood. I would like to see your facts and figures and please try some accurate statistics this time.

“When one religion and one religion alone is the focal point of so much terror and bloodshed, maybe, just maybe, somebody should stop and ask themselves why?”

I ask myself that everyday. Why do Jews hate Muslims so much? To the point of murdering them and exile them from their lands.

“Just saying "we're a religion of peace" does not make you one. If you want to have a serious discussion, please try to prove your point. (and getting all violent is not really helpful in doing so)”

Nope I’m not just saying it; the proof is all around you. Just take the wool off your eyes and demolish that brick wall in front of you and then you will see how beautiful Islam is.

“You say that all news showing Muslims in a bad light are just written by Muslim haters. I am not perfect. I will be the first one to admit it.”

Finally you admit you are a Muslim hater, racist bigot.

The rest of your message is so useless and so antagonistic that I won’t even respond to it.

Esther said:
Thank you for giving me a lesson in the true meaning of love and peace.

Let's see:
- you do not bother answering my questions. I am not asking out of malice, but out of true curiosity. I want to learn. Instead of answering, you insult me (I did not learn enough), you give me a very general link to an Islamic site and tell me I haven't studied enough. If all you can do is tell me to find answers elsewhere, don't be surprised when I actualy do. For the next person you try to convince about Islam, I suggest you make just a little bit of an effort in actually showing them that you're nice and not just condenscending and insulting.

- you did not give backing to anything you claim. I asked you several times for such, but all you can tell me if that I'm a Muslim hater and don't deserve any consideration. That might be good enough for bigots, but not for people who actually think.

- you are so full of hate - against Jews, against the very society which enables you to have such discussions (in Saudi Arabia internet is censored), against anybody and everybody. If this is the example of truly enlightened Islam, then I'm only left to wonder why this is supposed to make me think Islam is as good as you claim.

I tried finding a good count of all terror attacks in 2005. Sadly, I only found a list of those committed by Muslims (only those where people were killed). Notice that many of these attacks were in Muslim countries.

If you want to prove that Muslims aren't responsible for most terror attacks in the world, how about you do it, instead of expecting all those bigoted Muslim haters to do it for you?

NoLabels said:
“you do not bother answering my questions. I am not asking out of malice, but out of true curiosity.”

You admitted to me that you are a racist bigot; I don’t waste my time on people like you. It is not about curiosity but rather to find more ways to insult my religion.

“Instead of answering, you insult me (I did not learn enough), you give me a very general link to an Islamic site and tell me I haven't studied enough.”

Saying you didn’t learn enough or your information was inadequate is not an insult, trust me I can get worse than that. It is the simple truth; you do need more studying to do because evidently you are as dumb as a door knob.

“If all you can do is tell me to find answers elsewhere, don't be surprised when I actualy do.”

See this is what I mean about you making stuff up and spinning things around to make it negative. Anyone can do that, it’s easy. I gave you a general good Muslim site. You say you want to learn more (which you don’t) then go on that site and have a blast. Furthermore I told you that you can email me if you want to discuss even more options. So don’t give me excuses, you are obese with excuses.

“I suggest you make just a little bit of an effort in actually showing them that you're nice and not just condenscending and insulting.”

Actually I’m not trying to convince Islam to you…okay maybe I was in the beginning when I didn’t know your ugly demon-like personality. Now that I know who you are, I wouldn’t waste my time on bigots. What I’m doing is called defending. Nice? No I’m not going to be your dog. I laugh at the thought of you calling me condescending and insulting, no no no the award for that is all yours.

“you did not give backing to anything you claim. I asked you several times for such, but all you can tell me if that I'm a Muslim hater and don't deserve any consideration. That might be good enough for bigots, but not for people who actually think.”
Yes you’re right it is good enough for bigot, bigots like you.

"you are so full of hate - against Jews”

The only person who is doing all the hating is you! I’m not the one who made a hate blog that has a database of all the falsehood and twisted stuff from around the web about Islam. Several times I said how I hated the Holocaust and what happened to the Jewish people; now if I hated Jews I would never say that. So don’t turn tables at me, I could see right through your dark and eerie heart.

“you to have such discussions (in Saudi Arabia internet is censored), against anybody and everybody.”

Care to elaborate on what you mean by censored internet?

“I tried finding a good count of all terror attacks in 2005. Sadly, I only found a list of those committed by Muslims (only those where people were killed). Notice that many of these attacks were in Muslim countries.”

That’s nice. Dig up more civil war conflicts and the desperate attempts of people trying to get their lands back from thieves like the Israelis.

“If you want to prove that Muslims aren't responsible for most terror attacks in the world, how about you do it, instead of expecting all those bigoted Muslim haters to do it for you?”

You know if you want to get nasty and racist I have no problem bringing out every single stereotype, racist slurs, false hateful sites, and degrading cartoons I can find of Jews. If you want to throw out accusations, the onus is on you buddy to proof it.

I find it really sad that there are people out there in the world who spend their time being hateful and mean spirited. Didn’t your mom ever teach you if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all (you don’t have to answer *rolls eyes*)? I wouldn’t expect a Jewish person would be the one behind all the hate, I was expecting a fat white middle aged man. You know what they say about stereotypes. Considering all your past history of being portrayed as horrible human beings who are money hungry, one would think that a Jewish person would be more considerate of others now. I guess I had high expectations, you surely can’t reach it.

Esther said:
Hi nolables,

Kind of a funny name for somebody who labels and insults others.

Do you really think I'll give you my private email?

I think you're really a coward . If you would be really tough like you're showing yourself to be you would go to REAL Muslim hating sites and start saying something there. With your email in full view, you won't last a minute in such a verbal fight. Instead, you go to somebody who's actually trying to be objective.

Like I said, thanks for the lesson!