222 people answered the question should Muslim extremist groups be banned or debated?
77% (171) voted to ban extremist groups and 22% (51) voted that they should be debated.
I think those who commented gave a whole range of reasoning, and my opinion is a mixture of all, in a way. A main part of the current danger facing Europe lies in the ease of radicalization. Extremist groups work freely on the web and in the streets, and are even invited by governments to 'help' with the youth. These groups pose a serious danger and they should not be underestimated. Freedom of speech should not be given to those who work to undermine it.
I think their ideas and philosophies should be debated. I also think there's a lack of material on the subject and no real response to many of the arguments of the extremists. However, I don't think those groups should be given a podium, as that enhances their status as 'opinion makers'.
6 comments:
Islam is retrogressive.
No disrespect intended Esther, but I think that you are suffering from a very, very bad case of willful blindness and are desperately trying to find some good where there is none to be found.
I'd like to know what you find wrong with the human rights and freedoms the have been achieved by western civilization that you would even want to consider forfeiting them? Is it that you have too much freedom? Are there too many options, and choices, and decisions for you to make? It's all so complicated and confusing, that you do not want to think and take responsibility for your own decisions? Or is it that you are disturbed or perhaps embarrassed by those exercise their freedoms poorly and revel in decadence? Is it that you feel betrayed by feminist, socialist, or postmodern dogma that has turned out to be a pack of lies?
What is it that has you so confused that you'd even want to entertain an ideology that condones slavery, oppression, misogyny? You've got 800 years on islamic example to draw on. It's clear that islam is not a 'live and let live' culture.
There's nothing to debate. Muslims have already made their argument though their past and present actions. Islam is simply not compatible with the West.
I am at a complete loss to see what possible benefits your 'open-mindedness' will bring to today's children. Please do not jeopardize their future.
Hi Chalons,
I'm sorry but you completely lost me. You seem to think that 'debate' means acceptance. I see it completely differently.
Let's for the moment talk about extremist groups, and not 'Islam' in general, since this was the original question.
A Western youth meets an extremist Muslim. Let's say he does it on the web, in a place where you can't ban it. The extremist Muslim gives him anti-Western material.
This Western youth reads the material, and now wonders what is wrong with the West. This is not a Muslim youth, this is your normal Western bred kid.
You don't think he should have access to material that debate the basics of extremist Islam? Which explain Western ideals, show how we enjoy them, and explain what is wrong with undermining them?
Western people are being radicalized and are converting to radical Islam, which they see as an answer to the ills of the West. I think that the West is doing nothing to 'fight back' on the basic philosophical level.
As I wrote in my post, I don't think this should be a debate *with* the extremists, but rather, with their ideas.
Do I know the value of liberal Western freedoms? Yes. Does everybody else? I don't count on it.
Thank you for the clarification. Still, no debate is needed. The case for the west is out there in plain view - for anyone that has the freedom to view it, that is.
I think the problem you describe is not islam per se, but the a failure of the educational system (and society) as a whole. Academia's embrace of moral relativism and assault on traditional values is the real issue. Without a frame of reference, people are at risk of believing just about anything (as Chesterton rightly noted) - including the multiculti pap coming from our respective governments. With just a tiny bit of critical thinking skill, Islam is a no-brainer. It's the missing critical thinking skills that are the root problem.
It's the mush brained thinking that threw open the gates in the first place that is the true enemy. Perhaps a very short, catchy phrase like 'Don't Debate! Repudiate!' might go further than logic or reason in getting through to that crowd.
'Debating' extremists gives them a legitimacy they do not deserve. Change the wording from 'debate' to 'repudiate' and I'm on board. Too many girls have fallen off of balconies for me to feel any differently. It's not debatable.
If extremist groups are band the many people who don't know what they stand for will be far more strongly disposed to them. They will also be hearing their views but in a context where sane society is unable to expose the sophistries and fallacies and out right lies they use. No hate speech should be banned for this very reason. Curdled milk does not become fresher by hiding it under the bed.
But once "extremism" and "hate" become direct incitements to violence or violent acts then all gloves are off.
As a somewhat relative aside, it is always fascinating to see Muslims shocked to be told something that most informed kafirs have known from the first time they start investigating the faith. When the shocking info comes from an infidel they snap back that it is lies and propaganda. When it is an imam or other scholar who informs them (often a Muslim journalist or talk show host) they don't know what to think. When people can live all their life in an Islamic country, rise to a profession like a TV personality and yet not know how old the "Prophet's" second wife was when he consummated that marriage, it makes you realize why it has taken so long for Islamic nations to bother with literacy and why the problem of apostasy and terrorism have both emerged as those literacy rates have increased.
Muslim extremism is more dangerous and detrimental than Nazism. Isn't Mein Kampf banned in Europe? If Mein Kampf is banned, so should the Koran be. I'm actually not in favor of banning either. I think they should both be mandatory reading material so that people can understand the danger of miseducation and being swayed by charismatic leaders, and so they can learn to detect logical fallacies. I think that Islam's own texts are their worst enemy. If you read the letters from apostates on Faithfreedom.org, a huge proportion of them are from formerly useful idiots who had thought that Islam actually offered many positive Judeo-Christian-ish/Buddhist-ish values, but then they read the Koran/Hadith and couldn't get out fast enough, Ali Sina himself included.
As far as extremist groups go, sedition is sedition. Criticizing one's government and trying to change it are one thing, and trying to undermine and destroy it are something else. Plus, any political movement which tries to recruit children should be banned. Children should be educated, not indocrinated, and it is the government's job make sure that that's what happens. If anyone hates a government so much that they want to destroy it, they are welcome to get on a boat or a plane and go back to Satan's a-hole from whence they came. Do we try to overthrow (intolerable, abominable) other countries' leaders and convert their people to Christianity? No. But we do overthrow their leaders when they violate 12 UN resolutions twice over. There is a difference.
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